Tuesday, March 6, 2007

Continuation, continued...

Having covered continuation for calls made by the thrower yesterday, now what about calls made by a non-thrower?

Here, the first criterion is which team is considered the team in possession, ignoring the infraction, after the outcome of the pass. The choices are:

(1) the team that 'called' the infraction has possession (e.g., offensive foul with a turfed throw, or defensive violation with a completed pass) [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.a)]; or

(2) the team that 'committed' the infraction has possession (e.g., offensive violation with a completed pass, or a defensive foul with an interception) [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.b)].

And by "the team ... has possession", a person doesn't actually need to have physical possession, but rather the 'team' that has or may pick up the disc. [11th Ref: II.O.4.]

For the 'team that called' half, there's two main resolutions, which are a combination of which team (offense or defense) made the call, and whether the infraction was before or after the (start of the) throw. It's a lot of conditions to memorize--thrower/non-thrower, then called/committed, then offense/defense along with before/after the throw...whew--so let's try to make easy sense of it instead.

First, in concept, if the offense calls it and the offense keeps it, then it's exactly the same as if the thrower had made the call. Which is that an infraction before the throw will come back to the thrower, i.e., no free throw [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.a)(1)]; but one during the act of throwing stays completed [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.a)(2)].

And regardless of when the throw happens, if the defense calls it and the pass is turned over, it's always a turnover and a "play on" situation without a stoppage [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.a)(2)]. This makes sense: if the offense can't complete the pass WITH the infraction that disadvantages the defense, they really shouldn't be given the chance to redo the play. Or in other words, this best simulates what would most likely have happened absent the infraction.

And then for the 'team that committed' half, there's two main resolutions (easier than the 'called' half), which is whether or not the call 'affected the play' (that concept covered in another post). If the infraction affected the play, then the disc usually gets returned, unless another more specific rule applies (e.g., uncontested offensive receiving foul) [11th Refs: XVI.C.2.b)(1); XVI.H.3.b)(2)]; and if not, the play will stand [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.b)(2)].

It's important to note that in both cases, play will stop regardless of whether the result of the play stands or the disc is returned. In other words, when the play stands, rather than it being "play on" unhalted, a discussion will typically be necessary to determine whether the play was affected, and as such play really needs to stop.

Remember that if the infraction affected the play, it'll usually go back to the thrower, so is fair to the offense to reverse the turnover when the defense caused the infraction, and is fair to the defense to not let the pass stand when the offense caused it.

We go over 'affecting the play' in more detail in another post, but for here, think of examples where the infractions truly do not affect the play: a pick where the defender may have been 9 feet away at the time of the pick with no chance to block the pass even without the pick; or a foul on a receiver who is “two passes away” from a thrower who turfs a throw to another open receiver up the line. (Note that in both of these situations the call is still valid, and play stops, but the outcome of the play stands.)

In both of these cases, with or without the infraction, the result of the pass was very likely to be the same. So in keeping with the philosophy that, in general, we want to simulate the outcome that would have occurred absent the infraction, the play stands.

For some final words today, let me cycle back to a sentence I skipped at the very beginning, and then we'll save the rest of the rule for another time. And that is, "[ ... ] an uncontested stall that occurs after another call is treated the same as an incomplete pass." In other words, a call that the thrower doesn't acknowledge before "ten", is resolved the same as if he had turfed a throw instead of being stalled.
[11th Ref: XVI.C.]

What this means is either it was a defensive call and therefore it'll be a "play on" situation [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.a)(2)]; or it was an offensive call and the disc stays with the thrower, assuming the call affected the play (e.g., intended receivers no longer viable option because of the infraction) [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.b)(1)], or the stall stands if it did not affect the play [11th Ref: XVI.C.2.b)(2)].

One of the most effective ways of helping to make sure the thrower isn't stalled after a call, is for players (as many as possible) to echo the call so that the thrower is aware of the call as quickly as possible. [11th Ref: XIX.F.]

We'll take care of the rest of the continuation rule (i.e., affecting the play, and positioning after a call) another day.

Play on.


_dusty_ said...

"Common sense" leads me to believe that if an offensive player is fouled before the thrower is in the act of throwing and then the thrower completes a pass, the result of that pass should stand, since play doesn't stop until the thrower acknowledges the call. It seems extra silly to send the disc back if the pass was completed to the fouled player.

Obviously, if a thrower makes a call and then throws a completion, the play should not stand since the thrower was well aware of the time of the infraction and throwing after calling the foul is an attempt at a 'free throw.' However, if a call is made away from the play which the thrower doesn't hear, the thrower isn't trying to get a 'free throw', he is just trying to complete a pass.

Ofer said...

I agree with Dusty. I think the way to resolve this is by saying that the infraction "did not affect play". i.e. if the receiver was fouled and still managed to catch the disk, s/he would probably have caught it without the foul, and if the foul was away from the play, then, again, it did not affect the play.

I like the whole "didn't affect the play" rule, but I can foresee it causing problems. What if there was a foul away from where the play ends up being, but that might have changed where the play took place? i.e. what if I am striking long, get tripped, and stumble. my thrower, already at stall 7 and looking to huck, doesn't see this, and throws to a short receiver that gets D'ed. The foul was away from the play, but it conceivably affected the play. The defense would most likely argue that it did not, while the offense would argue it did.

hegbal said...

question on continuation rule:
a player of the offensive team (not the intended receiver) calls injury time out however the thrower throws the disc and the pass is not complete. In my understanding of continuation it is a turnover since the thrower did not acknowledge the call.???

Mortakai said...

hegbal, unless the disc was in the air or the thrower was in the act of throwing, the play doesn't count regardless of the outcome. Check the injury time-out rules for the more complete info.

Alan said...

I find XVI.C.1 and .2 very hard to interpret/learn because you have to read each item and think about all the situations it applies to, rather than seeing a nice flow chart you can quickly apply to a situation.. the hardest is the 2.a and 2.b part about "has possession" which makes you think about which team called it and whether a turnover resulted before you can even choose whether .a or .b applies. Here is my attempt to rearrange these into a more flow chart like setup:

Thrower called it before release:
- Violation during act: Completion stands(play on), revert on turnover
- Violation before act: Turnover stands(play on), revert on completion

Other Offense called it:
- Completion: stay/revert based on call after/before start of act of throw
- Turnover: revert if affected the play

Defense called it:
- Completion: revert if it affected the play
- Turnover: stands, play on

Alan said...

One little correction.. I had "called it before release" on the
thrower item.

Thrower called it.. if infraction was:
- during act: Completion stands(play on), revert on turnover
- before act: Turnover stands(play on), revert on completion
- after act: see Other Offense

Other Offense called it:
- Completion: stay(play on) or revert based on call after/before start of act of throw
- Turnover: revert if affected the play

Defense called it:
- Completion: revert if it affected the play
- Turnover: stands(play on)

Konstanty Kwas said...

Mmo rpg 2d, this is real problem not what you saying ;) peace